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castellan Offline
#1 Posted : Thursday, 21 May 2020 12:41:35 PM(UTC)
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Through the years how were Fords better than Holden's.
You could look at such from 1949 on.
Holden FX vs Ford don't the Fords have V8's ?
Dr Terry Offline
#2 Posted : Thursday, 21 May 2020 3:41:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Through the years how were Fords better than Holden's.
You could look at such from 1949 on.
Holden FX vs Ford don't the Fords have V8's ?


You can't compare apples with oranges.

The Holden's competitor back then was the Mk1 Zephyr. The US Ford was a much larger & more expensive car. The big Ford's competitors were the Chevs & Pontiacs.

Dr Terry



If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
 1 user thanked Dr Terry for this useful post.
Smitty2 on 21/05/2020(UTC)
Sandaro Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, 21 May 2020 9:16:50 PM(UTC)
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I recall reading 1960 motor magazines that rated the falcon XK above FB. Number of factors including updated styling (FB still based on 50s usa style), availability of auto trans in falcon, plus choice of 2 bigger engines in falcon.

Another example ZD v VB. Both complimented by motoring writers at the time for European design. Although most preferred the commodore some liked the size/power of the Falcon.
Horses for courses
castellan Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 1:38:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Through the years how were Fords better than Holden's.
You could look at such from 1949 on.
Holden FX vs Ford don't the Fords have V8's ?


You can't compare apples with oranges.

The Holden's competitor back then was the Mk1 Zephyr. The US Ford was a much larger & more expensive car. The big Ford's competitors were the Chevs & Pontiacs.

Dr Terry





I agree.
I look at this point for the concept of why ? well this FX Holden was a creation marketed for the majority of Australian people, The bigger cars were out of reach to, so they got that right and the FX was a very advanced car for it's day. look at all the pommy cars 1949 that we had, now they did not really stand out like the FX, one could buy a 6 cyl Vauxhall up to 1960's but have to fork out more.

If talking from the history point of view so that people nowadays can get a handle on the reality's of the days.
We have many people nowadays poo poo ing Australian involvement in building a car industry, and I see a real lack in the true story being portrayed in depth.
People are like oh Holden and Ford made in Australia is all so yesterday. we are so much smarter today Liar
Well hang about, I am a bit of a history buff and I like to have the in depth subject come out.
In a forum like this calibre one could catch such as to the grasp of the subject in depth, as we have some older people who still have a handle on them days from 1949 on, that may contribute.

I seen what a great job Dr Terry did with the Books on the years of Holden's, their is no Australian Ford book that is even comes near what he has done. such is a fantastic job.

If only one could come up with a overview of the history that gives such a light so that one even 20yo could pick up on the in depth reality's of the 50's 60's and so on as to why who and how what was what and all, so that they are not in ignorance of the facts, the younger generation are at a loss to have a real clue, they just say that is just old backwards shit made by backward people, and I am like hang on that's not true at them people back in the days were f ing smart as and bright, it's all well to act the smart arse in hindsight not to mention have a half arse twisted view on the past that many today display.

If one maybe looking back in 100 years time and trying to figure out a HR Holden, it would be like standing on your head to get ones mind around such a concept maybe or the XR Falcon for that matter. maybe they will not get the concept of a X2 or 186S or why a GT V8, or why the hell a 3sp on the tree was so popular ? even to me it's something that I despise, or why did they persist with a 1st gear crash box for so long, did people like that or was it just to keep women out of driving cars Pray hey they are going to try and come back on us with anything no matter how stupid it may sound to us, but the thing is they will get away with it. they do today with so mush BS that it's not funny and if you do tell them the truth they will only try and drag you down due to the trend and then when that trend has passed then they will be claiming that the cars were made by aliens, as in how could anyone figure out such a thing and put it together from scratch. look at the Pyramids I am sure it's all simple as dog shit to understand but their you go look at all the BS that can be created from such.
castellan Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 2:01:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
I recall reading 1960 motor magazines that rated the falcon XK above FB. Number of factors including updated styling (FB still based on 50s usa style), availability of auto trans in falcon, plus choice of 2 bigger engines in falcon.

Another example ZD v VB. Both complimented by motoring writers at the time for European design. Although most preferred the commodore some liked the size/power of the Falcon.
Horses for courses


How about the nonsense of the XK-L Falcon front ends that is spread about, I understand that the ball joints were made in the UK and made out of lower grade metal than the USA Falcon was and a few other things as well but then again look at the Zodiac Mk3 vs our Falcon you have 3sp auto and 4sp manual in the Mk3 Zodiac and the XM Falcon only has a crappy 3speed non syn 1st and on the tree and crap 2sp auto and thanks for the big fully imported big block Pray 200ci 6 cyl only in a auto mind you that saved the day.

I would have the VB Commodore any day over a XD Falcon to drive.
Dr Terry Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 2:14:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
I recall reading 1960 motor magazines that rated the falcon XK above FB. Number of factors including updated styling (FB still based on 50s usa style), availability of auto trans in falcon, plus choice of 2 bigger engines in falcon.

Another example ZD v VB. Both complimented by motoring writers at the time for European design. Although most preferred the commodore some liked the size/power of the Falcon.
Horses for courses


When the XK was released in Sept 1960 they only had the 144ci engine. The optional 170 "Pursuit" motor didn't come along until over a year later (Nov 1961), but yes the first Falcon stole the march on the Holden of the day in many ways. The Holden caught up in 1962 (EJ) & then passed them in 1963 (EH).

When you said ZD vs VB, did you mean XD vs VB ? They both had their virtues & weaknesses. It was an interesting time with 2 cars so different, but still directly competing with each other.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 2:39:33 PM(UTC)
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I know a lot of people back then admired the Ford Zephyrs/Zodicas & Vauxhall Crestas when compared to the Falcons & Holdens, but there were a lot more expensive & not as durable in some areas.

I'll have to look it up but a Zodiac Mk3 would have been dearer than either a Premier or Futura of the day.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 4:15:50 PM(UTC)
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When it comes to trying to retrospectively understand why certain cars had what, some of it came down to leaving enough fruit on the tree for the facelift. For example, GMH in their future planning documentation state that they were going to begin with certain size engines and design them for low cost for capacity increases so that as the facelifts or "new" shapes progressed there was enough there to interest new buyers. You see it with progression from 149/179 to 161/186 then 173/202. They had originally planned for a new inline 6cyl in the mid 70's but we all know what was going on at that time and it all got effectively delayed by a decade. The GMH V8 was meant to start smaller at 237ci and 262ci. The 237 was to become the 253, and the 262 to 276 and 289 then 308. I'd say the crash box was kept standard for HK as engines weren't meant to change other than HT going from 327 to 350. The 3spd all synchro was optional in HK but became standard in HT probably due to the engine choices planned to be all the same other than 327 to 350 as described. Remember HK was planned originally in 1964 to be 283 and 327 but the development in the local V8 saw HK changed to the local V8 but changed back to the SBC design engine once the GMH V8 wasn't ready. You can also see the pains GMH went to to get special 327's made to finish HK after 4BBL 327 went out of production in July 1968. They could have more easily fitted the 1969 L48 engine (as fitted to HT) but that was being saved for HT. It was still going on with the introduction of the LS1 engine in VTII. Power gradually went up into VX, VU and V2 and later VY and V2II etc. Some fruit left on the tree. I imagine Ford would have been very similar in holding back fruit for the next update or shape.
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Smitty2 Offline
#9 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 7:40:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
[................, did you mean XD vs VB ? They both had their virtues & weaknesses. It was an interesting time with 2 cars so different, but still directly competing with each other.

Dr Terry


compete..???? that argument raged, up to the highest levels in GMH as VB came out
(remembering GMH were still making Holdens and Toranas at time of VB release)
there were 2 camps, 2 trains of thought here ... VB v XD and Holden v XD

its been widely reported GMH went with VB downsizing due to oil crises/pricing ...
V Car of course being one of the GM global car lines being pushed (with TCar (Gemini) JCar(Camira))
but the whole question became academic when WB Kingswoods failed so dismally
at design clinics (run by Pattersons) and Holden having already announced the death
of the Torana (UD was never taken seriously), were now left with one car line...Commodore
to compete with Ford. To some extent Commodore v Falcon is an accident of history :)



Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 8:33:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
[................, did you mean XD vs VB ? They both had their virtues & weaknesses. It was an interesting time with 2 cars so different, but still directly competing with each other.

Dr Terry


compete..????



My comment was tongue in cheek.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, 22 May 2020 8:56:06 PM(UTC)
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Which WB Kingswood sedan did they have at the styling clinic Smitty? The oddball one in the Birdwood museum with a HZ body or one of the ones with a WB Statesman body? I’ve only seen pictures of the WB bodied car in Norm Darwin’s book, it looks black or dark coloured.
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Sandaro Offline
#12 Posted : Saturday, 23 May 2020 9:25:22 AM(UTC)
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Yes Dr Terry, I meant XD. I think they did compete for the family car market in the day, despite being so different. Motoring journals would always line them up for comparison as the progressed through the updates xe xf vc vh.

How much influence did motoring writers have on public opinion of the Aussie product. Certainly in the early to mid 70s I'd say the writers generally put down the local product, citing they were far inferior to euro models and inferior in standard equipment to japanese
castellan Offline
#13 Posted : Saturday, 23 May 2020 12:16:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Yes Dr Terry, I meant XD. I think they did compete for the family car market in the day, despite being so different. Motoring journals would always line them up for comparison as the progressed through the updates xe xf vc vh.

How much influence did motoring writers have on public opinion of the Aussie product. Certainly in the early to mid 70s I'd say the writers generally put down the local product, citing they were far inferior to euro models and inferior in standard equipment to japanese


But were the Aussie cars far inferior to the euro cars to mid 70's esp taking price into consideration.
ZA to ZG Fairlane 500 V8's were good cars and one could option air ect, you had a GT's from 1967 that were a fine car not to mention Fairmont. not to forget the Cortina's were not that bad.
Holden Premer V8's and Brougham from HK on were a fine car, HQ Statesman De Vill and HJ Caprice. anyone bagging such cars would have to be stupid back in the day. sure we had rubbish like 6 cyl kingswoods the problem is that most people think of Holden's as in regards to rubbish as 6 cyl Kingswoods.
look at the price of the Jap 6 cyl they are crap regardless really with only little gutless 6cyl and we had V8 options up to 1975 the only one would be the Datsun 260Z worthy of talking about but it's still gutless but impressive for what it was.

I had one mate ranting on about the Datsun 260C and the Toyota Crown oh they were so much better than our Aussie cars he said, f ing BS I said I would not be seen driving such rubbish f ing hell mate not all Aussie cars are only 6cyl crap Kingswoods, but they can't get past that the old man had crap 6cyl Kingswood or Falcons and when they seen the Jap 6cyl they were all oh look at how flash it is inside it's got this and that and I would say so where is the V8 option ? ever seen inside a Premier optioned up. No I would not be proud to drive any 6 cyl car in the 1970's bar some hemi 6 Valiants.
No them people are mad Jap 6cyl car indeed, no leg room in the back for a start and if you are over 6ft forget it.
Smitty2 Offline
#14 Posted : Saturday, 23 May 2020 10:14:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Which WB Kingswood sedan did they have at the styling clinic Smitty? The oddball one in the Birdwood museum with a HZ body or one of the ones with a WB Statesman body? I’ve only seen pictures of the WB bodied car in Norm Darwin’s book, it looks black or dark coloured.


the only one I ever saw (until I went to Birdwood and saw that.. rather strange ) was dark chocolate brown, metallic

the problem here was... GMH design guys kept playing with this design as in...
HZ Premier hubcaps on HZ Stato style body with WB ute grille + vinyl roof = WB Premier (!) so they said, HUH??
then
add Mercedes style alloys on the same car = WB 6 seat sedan (what was called internally inside GMH Design)
... which I assume (this is my guess ) was what clinic'd by George Patterson (as I never actually saw what got done)

This is not a clay either, but real metal...


and more annoying, cannot find my copy of Norm's book .. 100 years to check out more Brick wall

Edited by user Saturday, 23 May 2020 10:16:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#15 Posted : Saturday, 12 September 2020 2:50:42 PM(UTC)
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Now I have been with Fast lane for some time, but I was looking at some stuff that i printed from back on 25/7/2008 I have a Chrysler info form back then, it starts with.
Hey Charger by Trevor Hedge. a full history of the Valiant Charger and another a history of the Australian Valiant. I can't bring them back up, to see anything about Valiant's.

What was the go back then.
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